Hey all,
I have a situation... My wife paid another performing artist to create a website for her, which in their arrangements included hosting.
For my understanding this is a work for hire, since he would not have made this website otherwise, without her payment.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_hire
Now that the registry of her URL is coming up, he does not want to send us the files for the site so we can reload it onto the hosting plan that I have for my websites. He claims it is not their policy to release files. We like the base design, while the mystery meat navigation is slow and buggy, the base of the design is nice. We offered to keep his design credits unless a complete overhaul occurs, since we like the visual layout. For my knowledge, my wife paid for:
1. graphic design of the site
2. hosting from web release until this summer, seperately from basic design cost
3. registry of her URL, which was put in her name under his business.
What to do?
Do we keep the base design and re-script the back-end if he chooses to not send the files of the complete site?
What exactly are you buying when you contract for a site to be built, if not the files that comprise the site?
Recommendations?
Many thanks,
MT
I have a situation... My wife paid another performing artist to create a website for her, which in their arrangements included hosting.
For my understanding this is a work for hire, since he would not have made this website otherwise, without her payment.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_hire
Now that the registry of her URL is coming up, he does not want to send us the files for the site so we can reload it onto the hosting plan that I have for my websites. He claims it is not their policy to release files. We like the base design, while the mystery meat navigation is slow and buggy, the base of the design is nice. We offered to keep his design credits unless a complete overhaul occurs, since we like the visual layout. For my knowledge, my wife paid for:
1. graphic design of the site
2. hosting from web release until this summer, seperately from basic design cost
3. registry of her URL, which was put in her name under his business.
What to do?
Do we keep the base design and re-script the back-end if he chooses to not send the files of the complete site?
What exactly are you buying when you contract for a site to be built, if not the files that comprise the site?
Recommendations?
Many thanks,
MT
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SF Bay Area
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 10:29 AMIm a bit confused re: the hosting. If the webmaster was going to handle hosting, than what of the hosting plan you use for your other sites? Did the artist decide not to include hosting afterall? -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 11:21 AMHosting for the duration of the URL registry was negotiated at the time of contract.
I have a hosting plan for my sites we'd like to transfer it onto, and we intend to reregister
the domain directly to her, rather than as a client name under his business, as the domain is currently registered.
Now that the domain registry is coming up for renewal,
he is willing to transfer the domain registry but not the files for the site.
In essence, he's attempting to strong-arm her into keeping her business with him by refusing to release the content files of the site. -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 11:54 AMIt doesnt seem right. I have heard of web designers using a server of their own to perform the editing on so that the end customer is not paying for some extra months of hosting while the designer does his/her job. However it does seem like that isnt quite right for him to not give up the data. The design is his, yes. The content is yours however. -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 1:08 PMIn referring to content,
in addition to the images and information that were provided,
does that include the files (html, java, flash, html code)
which comprise the website?
If so, then the seperation between design and hosting services seems blurry in this situation.
It appears that unless we are hosted with him, he claims "It is not our policy to release files". -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 1:24 PMthe thing is, whether he wants to release the files or not, you can easily download them from the server.
If the pages are done in php or asp, you will need the server login so you can download the actual scripts. if the site is database driven, you would also need the login for the database in order to download the whole thing and save it as an sql file.
However if everything is html, javascript, and flash .swf, with background/logo/incidental graphics as .jpg and .gif images, heck you can use GoLive or whatever to create a new site with the external URL of your wife's site, hit "import site" and it will download everything to your computer. then you can re-post that to the new server at your convenience.
So, other than server-side scripts, you only need the source files if you want to make changes to them; and if you're already unhappy with the mystery meat navigation you might be happier just re-doing a lot of that stuff anyway.
I say, don't stay with somebody just b/c they are causing you problems. This is a red flag for future problems. Now, if only I could follow my own advice... -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 1:54 PMThe site is currently hosted on the designer's Godaddy reseller host plan,
so we do not have access to the files.
Therefore, since the designer is on tribe,
I am asking the design community to help define our respective rights as a reference point in our discussions
Hopefully this will be resolved in a manner that is beneficial to us both.
We like the design, and would obviously keep his design credit link.
However, he's in Canada and we're down here,
so webmaster services may also be used locally to update and maintain the site.
It seems like an attempt to coerce a client to remain with his services,
when payment was rendered for the site design at a discounted rate
that was agreeable to both parties at the time of agreement.
I mention this only because he repeatedly reminds us of it. -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 7:24 PM
well, in good faith, he would turn over the goodies, *all* of them.
Typically, I always drawn up a contract which specifically states what is provided, terms, timelines, and payment schedule. Nobody gets confused, and no hijinks later.
What he did is probably typical of some folks in the web community who want to insure a revenue stream for themselves - they make it very difficult for you to switch or move.
Basic facts outlined, I guess:
1) How complex is the site from a functional standpoint? (if it doesn't use feeds, fancy backend scripts/manipulation, you can grab 90% of it via methods described above)
2) Even if he takes it down, you may still be able to recover content from the archive.org
Generally, it is pretty standard practice to deliver "a website" to a customer with ALL files required for installed whereever the customer may choose.
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 11:59 PMBasics are this:
If he was contracted to create a site for you then you own the files that make up the site and anything else is a load of shit. I specify in my own contracts that the client owns all rights to the files that are the end product (unless otherwise specified) and all sketches, etc, belong to me.
Now... if you would just like to get what is yours and don't want to spend the time downloading each and every element I would suggest something like this:
Blue Crab, it will suck all of the file off the server for you!
www.versiontracker.com/dyn/mo...osx/697
Not to start bad energy but it does the trick and will save it all in the correct file hierarchy! -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Fri, April 25, 2008 - 1:50 AMHi all it is the "terrible" bad guy here. What MT is getting on about is a load of bollocks and it doesn't pertain to him. I designed the site and did not do Work For Hire as he'd like to think.
Now lets' get down to things before he continues to shoot off his mouth without al the facts. I as a favour to his wife whom I like a bunch contracted and let me say it in bold CONTRACTED myself to her to do her site.
Anyways I don't need to go into deep details as I am tired and quite honestly frustrated that MT would even post here before I had contact with Monica to even discuss this by phone.
Good night all and MT MYOFB this approach doesn't do anything other than create ill feelings . You should be ashamed.
And just to clarify something in the WFH wikipedia link you sent me !! Does that mean if I buy a ticket to your show or I give you cash while your busking that I own your show !? Come off it man what kind of approach do you have towards intellectual property !??!
Make sure your "facts" are clear .
Thanks all and I apologize that this was brought here instead of being dealt with like a civil respectful person.
Byron -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Fri, April 25, 2008 - 5:09 AMSeems to me that going forward, you need to just let it go. You obviously have some sort of personal connection with them outside of the web work you did. For the sake of keeping the peace, do the right thing and turn over the files to them and help them transfer the domain.
Sometimes you just need to walk away.
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Fri, April 25, 2008 - 10:59 AMBlue, to true , however this matter needed not be brought to this forum and sometimes it is best not to stick your finger in a bee hive !! (not referring to your opinion of course)
What however this can stimulate is a better understanding of intellectual property and artists protecting their rights and copyrights.
I would suggest a look into ASMP and CAPIC both are organizations whom work hard to educate both art buyers and artists about keeping the industry running efficiently and fairly for all parties involved.
Work For Hire is absolute bollocks and any artist that agrres to it is out of their mind unless a hefty buy out is negotiated. Unfortunately the mis belief that just because you have paid for something you "own" it is a common problem amongst many professionals especially when dealing with low budget projects.
to be continued........ -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Fri, April 25, 2008 - 12:27 PM
Hey, we're relatively powerless in this case, we're not attorneys, but there's always small claims.
Ultimately, it's free markets and the courts that dictate outcomes like these...
I wish you both the best in resolving the matter. -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Sat, April 26, 2008 - 4:25 AM"Unfortunately the mis belief that just because you have paid for something you "own" it is a common problem amongst many professionals especially when dealing with low budget projects."
Then when you sell a website, what are you selling?
If I'm not mistaken, it is a sale, a transfer of goods and or services for money,
not a lease, where one is licensing user rights for a duration.
Please correct me if I am wrong. -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Sun, April 27, 2008 - 12:20 PMMT you just can't let things alone can you.
I suggest you look into the Graphic Arts Guild of the United States they have ample information on this. You are wrong about this and you don't have all the facts straight.
Unfortunately this constant badgering shifts my trust in YOU , not Monica , which has always in fact been the main concern all along.
Your attitude makes me wary of sending any files over and confirms my suspicions.
Monica and I are dealing with this, so mind your own business please as you are hindering the process not helping. I don't need a flame war on tribe nor do I need to focus my energy on explaining an agreement that I had already entered with your wife.
Respectfully,
Byron -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Sun, April 27, 2008 - 9:57 PMWell, look, point is, you are both wrong. unless you have an agreement as to what your agreement means to begin with, it's undefined. I specify in all of my contracts that the site belongs to the client and, if it uses any stock photos of my own they are licensed to the client unconditionally (unless otherwise specified). Also, i license my own artwork- like paintings and stuff- so that is also another agreement.
However if a designers general rule of thumb is that they own all the files etc, unless they specify otherwise, i'll be sure to never send anyone their way. After all, if i build a house for someone and they move in- am i licensing this to them? no, they own the house. -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Sun, April 27, 2008 - 11:31 PMThank you, Michael.
All the source files were Monica's, shot by other photographers,
aside from the design elements of the GUI.
It's not like we want his code to replicate and sell to other clients.
That would be beyond the scope of reasonable.
Even Wordpress, which people sell templates for,
has a budget 'non-exclusive' rate and an exclusive rate to own the site design
without concern of another site looking exactly like yours.
We're not even concerned about his reuse of the graphic elements for other client's projects.
More, we'd like to have an easy transition from his hosting plan to mine.
So far, this has been anything but easy.
No I don't know when to quit when dealing with questionable business practices.
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Sun, April 27, 2008 - 11:43 PMand again I will ask, until it is stated clearly for the record:
Byron,
when you sell a website, what have you sold the client? -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 12:56 AM
Is this website up somewhere?
I'm so curious to see this precious thing. -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 9:11 AMRax,
I had intentionally not posted Byron's profile link, company name, or my wife's URL because I wanted to gather information and understanding from the designers here. That was to keep this thread from degenerating into a flame war and allow Byron the option to do the right thing before slinging mud in his face publicly.
Your post underscores the fact that most folks are not going to go 5 clicks deep to hunt down her URL on tribe. -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 9:59 AM>> Your post underscores the fact that most folks are not going to go 5 clicks deep to hunt down her URL on tribe.
But some of us already did. :)
Anyhow, I agree with Blue, regardless of the "contract" or agreement, Byron should just hand over the files and be done with the whole thing. Better for everyone all the way around. We host 99% of the sites we do, but in certain cases, it was just easier to let the client do their own thing (for many reasons, some good, some not-so-good). I am not saying anyone is right or wrong here, just saying get on with it.
If the pricing for the design was discounted based on the fact that additional revenue would be made on the hosting, call it a lesson and move on to the next, and don't do deals like that in the future, as they never seem to work out (I'm sure we all have counter-examples where it does work, but the odds seem to be against you).
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 5:14 AM"Unfortunately this constant badgering shifts my trust in YOU , not Monica , which has always in fact been the main concern all along.
Your attitude makes me wary of sending any files over and confirms my suspicions. Monica and I are dealing with this, so mind your own business please as you are hindering the process not helping."
Again, in order to rid yourself of any ongoing turmoil and drama, just send the files. Who cares if there is static from one place or another? Are you trying to cut MT out of the negotiations because you really have some sort of weird infatuation with Monica? This sounds worse than a soap opera. Maybe you thrive on controversy but most people would beg to give the files to someone, anyone, to be rid of the grief. -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 9:20 AMThank you Blue.
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 10:36 AMThe whole reason for this forum was for MT to justify himself which you have now done for him Blue !! Your comment Blue are without relevance and had MT just let Monica and I deal with this it would have already been done. Monica is a grown woman who can handle her own .
He took this upon himself and without asking his wife who is my client. I don't have any "infactuation" with Monica I just don't need misinformed individuals talking shit and then posting me links to it. MT has no idea of what transpired. Instead of asking me and discussing with me he decided to tell me.
Now I am not you Blue but I am pretty sure that if you had someone ask you nicely to do something or had some conflicting opinions that you'd expect them to direct those questions towards you. Instead what has happened is these "questions" have been posed in a forum without posting all the details in order to validate MT's actions.
I would have merely answered and clarified my intentions and none of this would have taken place. However what has occurred is MT has been rash and abrasive which unfortunately rubbed me the wrong way. Unfortunately MT needs this reaffirmation he is right and just.
I find a simple phone call can settle all these matters and Monica and I are supposed to do this. So I apologize to all those in this forum that have had to read through this matter as it could have been dealt with last week !! Anyways this is consuming my time and energy which is far more valuable to me so I will not need to chime in on this any more.
MT I hope that you can let this go and let Monica and I handle it. I don't care for the way that you have addressed me and I am sorry if I offended you that was not my intention , however I ask for your peace so that this matter can be resolved. I hope that this experience may shine a light on things you need to work on.
I know I have taken some valuable lessons away with this.
Respectfully,
Byron -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 2:32 PMMT wrote the opening post on the thread in a very generic and non-specific way, asking really important questions about a very vague area of intellectual property rights which many of us are interested in.
It wasn't until you came on here and started getting defensive that it turned into an arguement.
I was getting something out of the discussion until you entered it and started slagging MT and trying to justify your situation. Not only does it sound like you're doing shady work from the details of the project, but your tone in the threads only degrades your position.
Sorry for the harsh reality check but I think he's justified in asking (without names) about a project his wife is involved in. I would say that the legal terms of marriage make it his business too! -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 4:34 PMWell here is to MT I have transfered everything over to him so now after I did all the leg work and hard work it can be handed over to another company to "finish off" . I really think it is funny how so many can comment on this when not all the facts are clearly laid out. I am definitely not a shady person I am just a person that made a mistake doing a favour for a friend. Now I am the asshole who works for nothing and gets slandered for it as well ! Oh and just to get everything straight the hosting and domain has been paid by my company as well !
Just realize that all the source files consisted of extremely poor images that needed scanning , heavy retouching and then design to boot. All this for 500 dollars which was fine as it was between friends and I believed that due to me doing all the work any following work woud of course then go through me !
I did make a cardinal mistake , never work for friends , it is ridiculous. To think I am getting slagged over all of this to boot is hilarious.
www.paintercreativity.com/artic...s.html a link I think you will find interesting.
Over and Out . I hope that everyone has learned from all of this. I certainly know I have.
Byron -
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Re: Who owns the site? Work for hire?
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 11:56 AMI don't think the lesson is "never work for friends"
but instead:
always have clear agreements, in writing, even if it is just with friends.
I understand- when it is for friends sometimes is when it gets murkiest because both parties have expectations of the other. and then we make these "trust" agreements but we both have different parameters as to what that means.
to quote your link:
"Any reputable business uses paperwork to define relationships and you should too."
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