I know that using "display:hidden" and the like will cause a search engine to block a page from their search results but what about using "text-indent:-10000px". For example, with an unordered list of links, where the links are display:block and then the actual links are background images with the text is indented of the page. Or in the header- a large graphic banner with descriptive text (this site blah blah keyword blah keyword blah....) where the text is indented off the page yes is displayed as a block link the size of the banner that is being used as a background. Do you think this is as harmful to SEO as :hidden or font-size:0px or the like?
I looked in the google guidelines and it doesn't seem to say anything about the specific attribute of indentation and so many sites use this method of displaying links that such that it seems counter productive to prohibit it.
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Re: search engine question
Fri, March 7, 2008 - 5:20 PMI dont think its so much about hidden or indenting as it is about stuffing keywords that may or may not have actual relevance to the content of the page. I Would think that Google has somehow managed to detect to some degree this abuse no matter what the method. I say this because ive seen many a site that use display: hidden; to do effects and pre-dom insertion.
I could be wrong but thats my assumption.
Beyond that even if it didnt specifically penalize Id say just on the basis of "right" and "wrong" dont do it. If youve got the over all content correlation then your ranking will be good (comparatively speaking) if you dont it *shouldnt* be. :-)
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Re: search engine question
Sat, March 8, 2008 - 2:10 PMPixel is mostly correct, but lets get specific about this.
www.456bereastreet.com/archiv...e_text/
"If you’re straight-out using CSS to hide text, don’t be surprised if that is called spam. I’m not saying that mouseovers or DHTML text or have-a-logo-but-also-have-text is spam; I answered that last one at a conference when I said “imagine how it would look to a visitor, a competitor, or someone checking out a spam report. If you show your company’s name and it’s Expo Markers instead of an Expo Markers logo, you should be fine. If the text you decide to show is ‘Expo Markers cheap online discount buy online Expo Markers sale …’ then I would be more cautious, because that can look bad.”
then
"We can flag text that appears to be hidden using CSS at Google. To date we have not algorithmically removed sites for doing that."
I use display:hidden less these days, but my dropdowns still move stuff off screen, but with those sites I do not usually have problems getting them ranking well for their key terms or keeping them up in the ranks (that assumes a lot of other SEO work though)
You can also use javascript or jQuery to do it if you are paranoid...
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Re: search engine question
Sat, March 8, 2008 - 6:45 PMon my last dropdown i used display:none
then for the :hover state it changes to display:block
doubt it has affected my page rankings so far...
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Re: search engine question
Sat, March 8, 2008 - 8:54 PMWell, you know it is trh basic introduction o the site that is sitting there in the header, put there in h1 tags... Am i paranoid? well... it's not my site but a clients site. The verbage isn't anything that is reprehensible since it is basically intro stuff not spam oriented kind of jargon. but at the same time- i think maybe the rule to live by is whether hiding the text being done for stylistic reasons (for the links/graphic display, etc) or if it is being done to actually just stuff words in the page.
thanks for the link
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Ask this question
Sat, April 5, 2008 - 7:03 AMThe long and short of it is this:
The engines have large teams of very smart professionals writing their algorythms. They spend more time and money than you can imagine on researching the latest trends in SEO practices ("white hat" and "black hat"). They don't miss much, and when they do, they don't miss it for long.
So! If you want know if something is acceptable to the search engines you basically need only ask "Is this useful to my visitor?" If you are doing something that serves no purpose but to try and increase your rankings yet serves zero purpose to your visitor (as would be anything that you are trying to "Hide")............ Then consider that a "black hat" practice and that you are putting yourself at risk to the engines.
Remember that once you get banned it's hell to get back.... so don't risk it... Nothing that you do to increase rankings will ever be worth the catastrophic loss to your business of being banned.
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Re: search engine question
Sun, April 6, 2008 - 12:37 AMLately, I've beginning to question the effectiveness of designing a site for SEO. There are certain things that you do for SEO (keywords in title, h1, links, first paragraph, etc) that aren't conducive to good sales.
SEO is marketing. Marketing usually means more traffic. More traffic doesn't mean more sales conversions. I'm learning that the hard way with my wife's business site.
Sales is getting your client to make a 7 decisions. Decision 1 - Do you like me and my company? People do business with people they like. SEO writing sometime isn't really helpful in getting people to say yes to that first decisions let alone all the way to decision 7 (yes, I will buy your product from you for the price you asked).
I'm completely revamping her site to walk the various personas through that process now. Because in the long run, good marketing doesn't trump good sales.
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Re: search engine question
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 11:29 AMCorin, your post sounds like a great topic for a new thread. Sometime when you're taking a break from your project, if you feel like starting a discussion about your thought process as you redesign a site for client usability and with the goal of "sealing the deal" I think it would be very interesting for many of us. -
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Re: search engine question
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 12:59 PMyeah id totally love to read that. -
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Re: search engine question
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 7:23 PMI have been paying quite a bit of attention to all this SEO/marketing stuff lately.
There are a ton of resources out there, but I have been really enjoying SEOmoz blog
What Corin is referring to sounds like "funneling"
from what I understand, Funneling is the process of leading the visitor through a series of web pages whereby the user gets more and more sold on the product/service, until they are ready to buy and are at the right page to do that.
So, in essence, getting people to your page is a critically important step.
you can do this with SEO or a pay per click campaign, or other creative ways
If you choose the ppc, then you can direct them to appropriate landing pages.
Once you have them there, you have the opportunity to start the funneling process.
and yes, a thread on the topic would be good, but it really belongs in its own tribe dedicated solely to Internet Marketing.
and....there are a few tribes like this, but they get almost no action. -
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Re: search engine question
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 11:58 PMI totally agree that the whole SEO thing gets overrated, esp when it comes to converting those visits into actual sales. While it's something that can have some effect on sales- for example, i'm working on one site for a Chiropractor in LA- well people look for LA Chiropractor white a bit in various forms so having terms that are conducive to that is helpful. However, I agree it can get ugly. It was something that he started throwing stuff at me and then I showed him some other sites taht had figured out how to group their content so that it was still conducive to SEO but was elegant and/or relevant to the actual topics at hand.
At the same time, for my own personal sites (for my artwork for example), I work a lot more on simply creating an elegant and easy to use and navigate site (it's pretty big so ease of use is important) and that way it creates a feeling of ease (people return to that which feels easy) and if it always has congruous links to the main store then it is more likely to funnel visitors in that direction and they are also more likely to return. There are other useful things to add for marketing as well like tell a friend forms, adding the website link to all relevant pictures, that kind of thing. I have found places to enter keyword relevant wording but with the internet as bloated with nonsense as it is, it's sometimes hard to imagine that these oh so valuable "keywords" are actually that helpful.
So ultimately, Corin is right: the first decision that the visitor makes is: do i like this site? (and therefor will i stick around and look around?) If you use Google analytics you can see how much time people spend on your site. Usually it's pretty minimal. But then, I'm the same way- we skim. So ease of use, info presented an easy to get at manner, these things can be done using SEO techniques while at the same time still allowing for elegant design. In my opinion tho, design and layout comes first as it is the most important thing when it comes to converting visits to sales. -
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Re: search engine question
Tue, April 8, 2008 - 2:53 AMIt's not that I think SEO is overrated. I think it's quite effective as part of a marketing plan. However, I don't think it can be your only marketing plan.
I don't plan to abandon SEO altogether with my wife's site. I need to keep her SERPs high because I want her prices to be the first prices a client sees before they start shopping. If you read a book called Predictably Irrational, David Ariely who's a behavioral economist, did some experiments about the falllacy of supply and demand setting the price of items. He's behavioral experiments showed how random numbers like the last 2 digits your social security number can effect how much you're willing to pay for an item if you have no basis of valuing that item.
If a buyer sees my wife site before her competitors, she sets the initial anchor price (which is really hard to overcome). Her prices are about 30% higher than her closest competitors. If the buyer sees her prices first, the buyer isn't thinking that my wife's prices seem high. Instead they'll be asking why are her competitors prices lower.
I think David Ariely experiments explain (at least to me) why individual freelance designers lowball and why clients overvalue SEO as a marketing tool.
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